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Indus
vision, a private satellite channel of Pakistan invited PAT
Chairman, Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri in its heated discussion
program "Do
Toak". This discussion program
focuses on contentious issues related to the politicians in
Pakistan
. The host had something with him to knock out every single
politician in his previous talks but this was not the case with
Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri. Proven track record and a clear conscience of
PAT leadership leaves no room for
anyone to raise fingers on either PAT or its leadership.
Same was the case with this talk show. The host brought highly
burning issues of the life and achievements of PAT Chairman and
PAT itself into discussion but failed to dominate the scene. Every
question was answered with multitudes of argumentative confidence
and clarity compared to the question asked.
This program was telecasted on 11th, April, 2002 at
9:00 PM
.
Following is a
transcript of the discussion. (Certain cross questioning by the
host and answers of PAT Chairman to them are highlighted in small
letters in Q & A format so that the readers don’t loose the
thread of the discussion.)
Host:
Today in "Do Toak" our
respected guest is Prof. Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri who is chairman of
Pakistan
Awami Tehreek. Although one of his
recognition is Minhaj-ul-Quran Movement and he is a renowned
religious scholar and leader but we will try to talk to him from a
political perspective.
Q:
Dr. Sahab I would like to ask that there are many religious
parties in Pakistan but we see that politically they are not that
much successful. See the election of 70. Jamaat-e-Islami got 4
seats, JUP got 5 or 6, JUI 7 or 8. And
then even in the elections in later years people did not voted for
the religious parties. What do you think why religious parties
have not been successful?
PAT
Chairman: Yes it is
right. They have never been able to flourish, could not respond
better and they never got much mandate. There are two or three
clear reasons behind it.
First
Religion has never been a problem for the people of
Pakistan
. The problems of people are their health, their security, shelter
and employment and so on. When some party raises the slogan of
"Shaukat-e-Islam", people
will not vote on this slogan. A poor man wants to know from those
who raise this slogan that how will my
problem of bread-earning will solve. One who is unemployed he
wants to know from where will I get the
guarantee of my job. Where there is law and order problem and
lives and properties are not secure, the people want to know are
you able to restore the law and order and make my life and
property secure? There must some social and political
agenda. These religious parties don't transfer that agenda to the
people.
Second
is their sectarian character. These religious
parties are not based even on religion. In reality they are based
on sects and particular schools of thought. See their base. Each
one of them represent a particular
sect. For example that party which belongs to Deobandi school of
thought you will not able to see even a single member of any other
school of thought. Neither is there any room for it.
Q : Like Jamiat
Ulama-e-Islam ..
A : I will not name any one. This is
not my position and I respect all.
Similarly
in parties representing
Barelvi, Shia and Ehl-e-hadees creeds there will not
be any person of any other sect. They just represent a small sect.
So there circle has so much been narrowed that they don't
represent whole religion within the circle of religion itself.
As far
as we are concerned we always say categorically that we don't
represent any sect or any particular school of thought.
Q: So you represent all people, Shia, Sunni, Deobandi, Barelvi...
In
Pakistan Awami Tehreek there are people from all schools of
thought. We don't even ask as to which creed do
you belong. And apart from this we have minorities as our
members. Christians, Hindus and Sikhs are our members.
Q:
You came into politics but your renowned personality which
people have been seeing for past two decades is of a religious
scholar fisrt. Do you think that these
religious parties have not succeeded due to their own differences?
PAT
Chairman: You talked
about me as a religious scholar. Their is no denial of being a
servant of religion but being a servant of religion does not mean
that I represent any particular sect or school of thought or I am
a sectarian leader. The service which I have done to religion and
which I am doing till today on global level that is done by
lifting myself from the narrow circles of sects and to work on an
Umma level.
Q:
But when you are introduced your first introduction becomes a
religious scholar, like Doctor Tahir-ul-Qadri Sahab, Allama
Tahir-ul-Qadri Sahab and not as a pure political leader like
Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif or Chudhri
Shujaat etc...
PAT
Chairman: There is a
reason for this. By the grace of Almighty Allah I have been able
to act upon the sunnah of Prophet
(Peace be upon him). Now the political leaders which you have
mentioned they have only secular aspect in their struggle. Their
parties are devoid of religion. But my thought and struggle have
two full fledged channels. One is Tehreek Minhaj-ul-Quran, its
the religious, social and welfare channel while the other is PAT,
which is the political channel.
Q: It
is said that your political program or even religious program came
forward when you started contacts with Nawaz Sharif..
PAT
Chairman: This is totally baseless and contrary to facts. When
I was lecturer in
Punjab
University
and I worked whole tenure as a professor of law, at that time I
was assigned a responsibility on national level to serve as
Religious expert in curriculum wing of ministry of
education so I was introduced in those circles. In the
same era I was taken as advisor in Federal Shariat
court, so the circle enlarged. Then Shariat appellate bench of
Supreme Court was formed, General Zia requested and I came as an
advisor to this bench. These were the channels and national
assignments due to which President Zia requested me to deliver
lectures in the program Fehm-ul-Quran. On direct request of
government I started this program. At that time Nawaz Sharif was
probably minister of Finance of Punjab. He did not have that much
recognition. Fehm-ul-Quran further accelerated my thought and
message.
Q: But
when and under what circumstances you met with the businessman and
industrialist Nawaz Sharif?
PAT
Chairman: That meeting is
very interesting. Nawaz Sharif, Shahbaz
Sharif and their father Mian Sharif were regular participants of
my Dars-e-Quran program at Rehmania
Mosque in Shadman. But I did not
recognize them.
Q: But
Sharif family says that we were such a big and famous family and
whole
Lahore
knew them..
PAT
Chairman: I had
transferred from Jhang in 1978
that’s why I did not knew them as it
should have been.
Q: But
Ittifaq foundry was established..
big factory, big name...
PAT Chairman
: I knew only this much that there is Ittefaq foundry
and Ittefaq family but more than that I did not knew much. I knew
them only by name and not by faces. They used to sit any where in
the mosque but at the end of Dars they
all used meet me in a que. At the end
of one lecture I asked them you 4 or 5 people come to the program
always. What is your name? Then a person close to me told that
this is Mian Sharif, that is Shehbaz
Sharif and that is Nawaz Sharif... So I got introduced to
them. Then they requested that you give Dars-e-Quran in our Mosque
in H-Block,
Model
Town
. I refused it. Then they asked Maulana
Abdul Sattar Khan Niazi,
Mufti Muhammad Hussain Naeemi
and Chief Justice Lahore High Court and many other people which I
knew to request Qadri Sahab to deliver Jumma
lecture at our Mosque. At last we asked them to give a written
application. Mian Muhammad Sharif Sahab came with a written
application to Minhaj-ul-Quran Executive. On that application our
Executive went to check the location of Ittefaq Mosque. Until
that time I did not give regular Juma
lectures at any mosque. Minhaj-ul-quran
executive decided to start Jumma
lecture. We posed two conditions:
1. I
will give lecture but there will not be any emolument, stipend or
fee and we will not get a benefit of even a single penny for our
movement and you will never compel us.
2. If you
aim to go high in coming times our movement will not give you any
benefit politically or organizationally. No give and no take.
Q: For how
long did this continue?
PAT
Chairman: Seven years.
Q: You
remained for seven years with them and after seven years you came
to know that there is some defect in the personality of Main Nawaz
Sharif?
PAT Chairman
: Let me tell you
that even till the time of difference
with them we did not have any personal differences. Neither we
said any thing about them nor they said
anything about us. Their was a
difference on principle.
We had a
settlement that they will not get any political benefit from us
like we will not get any monetary benefit from them. I established
Idara Minhaj-ul-Quran and we invested million and billions of
rupees in form of its universities, colleges and institutions but
we according to our promise did not get even one inch of land from
them.
Q : And what about that propaganda
which Muslim leaguees do?
A : That is absolutely wrong and
baseless. We did not get even one inch of land neither from their
family
nor on governmental level. We did not
get even a single penny from them.
Q : Then why the differences develop?
A : Differences did not develop on this
point. As I have said just as we had a settlement that we will not
get financial benefit from them
similarly they had also promised that they will not ask for
political
benefits. Till 1988 the matters went
well.
Q
: You did not help them in 88 elections?
A : I am telling you about that
But in 1988 for
elections IJI had been made. Before that there was non-political
era. Help was not needed. General Zia used to give him some
position.
Q : We can talk about it that a person
whose carrier was related to a military ruler you gave Khutba in
favor of
him for seven years...
A : No I
did not give Khutba for Nawaz Sharif (…laughingly). It was to
the people of
Lahore
.
Q : But it was on his saying..
A: No , it was on the request of
Mian Sharif.
Q: You are political leader also. It can be asked did not
you talk about politics in the time of Zia-ul-Haq?
A: I did speak about it. I spoke in favor of democracy and
against dictatorship in my Khutbat-e-Jumma. And
Sharif
family listened to it always but sometimes they would say
"Have some lighter hand". But I would say no
when I am on Mimber-e-Rasool I will
only say that which is right and will tell it wrong that which is
wrong. I never
showed hypocrisy and said that on which
my conscience was clear and which religion had taught me
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Q:
So where did the conflict arise?
PAT Chairman
: It was in 1988 when on one side there was PDF
of Benazir Bhutto and on the other side IJI. There was a religious
leader also in IJI.
Q : Qazi
Hussain Ahmed?
A: I will not name that leader. Not yes, not no. I have said what
I wanted to say.
He met me and
said Qadri Sahab, at this time there is war going on between Islam
and Kufr. Give us some help. For the sake of Islam you should
stand with us, IJI, Muslim league and Nawaz Sharif. Come somewhat
in our gathering, give some speech and direct your workers all
over the country to support us. I said to that religious leader of
IJI that if I had thought that the fight between IJI
and PDF or Benazir and Nawaz Sharif as war between Islam and kufr
then I should not have bothered you to even ask for it. I would
have supported you myself. But I have observed it closely. Neither
is this Islam, nor that kufr. It is a fight for the seat,
interests and power. The problem with you is this that in whatever
filed you go you make it a war between Islam and kufr. They are
just enticing you.
Then
those people worked on Ittefaq family and Nawaz Sharif family.
Since that was the first election and results were unsure so they
said to them that you treat Qadri Sahab like a murshid. You give
so much respect and have such cordial relations. We know that he
does not get any thing from you but he is not ready to help you
even for Islam? On these lines they worked on them very wisely…
on every single member of that family. At last they succeeded in
creating discord within the family. And the family demanded to
Mian Sharif and Nawaz Sharif to ask Qadri Sahab that for God's
sake help us. We are in a very
difficult situation and we need your help. Then at last Mian
Sharif and others came to me. Till that time the election
for national assembly had passed and Nawaz Sharif was defeated in
it. After the election of provincial assemblies they had send
their MPAs to Changa
Manga and Benazir had collected their MPAs
in Muree and
Kashmir
. Since Nawaz Sharif could not become Prime Minister so they had
came to me that the chief ministership
of
Punjab
should not go from their hands. I always avoid this kind of talk
but since you have asked so I am openly saying it today.
They
said that please go three days with us to Changa
Manga. And I say on record today that
they said that these MPAs have taken
this much lakh rupees from us and
similar amount from Benazir and are day by increasing their rates
and are receiving from both sides. But despite all this we don't
know who will they vote for at the time
of electing. They said that we have left no dearth for them with
regard to money and land but only thing which lacks is that you
stay there in Changa Manga
for three days and say to them that we have left no deficiency for
you in the worldly matters but you are Muslims also and you have
Eternity too. "Those" are anti-Islam and against the
country people but however "these" may be at last these
are not anti-Islam people. So help “these” people. You give
them speech. Allah has given you the power of convincing. Their
worldly interests have been fulfilled, if their hearts become soft
and they stand to it a little more, we can win the election...
That was the reason we had come to you Qadri Sahab. I said Mian
Sahab I can't do it.
Q: You made
Pakistan
Awami Tehreek and by raising the slogan of revolution you had
said that we will not meet any corrupt person. Let us assume that
your relations with Nawaz Sharif were only religious but then we
see that you made
Alliance
with Benazir. They were political people...
PAT Chairman
: We have been part of only one alliance and that was
Pakistan Awami Ittehad in 1998 and the condition for our being a
part of that alliance was this that I had been offered to join PDF
as chairman of the alliance.
Q: And in
that alliance Nawaz enmity was also an element..
PAT Chairman
: Let me tell you one thing. Allah has given me
such a nature that I have never taken a single step of Nawaz
enmity in my life. Allah is a witness to it.
Q But the
alliance was against Nawaz Sharif..
PAT Chairman
: NO that was a political difference. There is no
hostility in it. There is betterment of country in it. I thought
honestly that the way Nawaz Sharif and his party were ruling
Pakistan
that was against the federal principles and against federal
democracy. Three small provinces were getting harsh in hatred
against
Punjab
. They had totally ignored them. Corruption had risen to extreme
levels. Institutions were destroyed and by undermining the
institutions they had concentrated the authority and power to
themselves to such a level that the purpose of all constitutional
amendments had been limited to accentuate all powers in their
person. Through 13th amendment they got the powers of even the
president and through 14th amendment the rights of
parliamentarians were transferred to them and the right of
disagreement from parliamentarians was
snatched. And through 15th amendment the God's commandment was
being tried to get but Allah did not let them do so.
Q: On the
level of knowledge and consciousness you were as much mature in
1980 as today. You had observed him for many years. Why it took
you this much time to be against him?
PAT Chairman
: First period was not a political period. The
era of Zia-ul-Haq was not a political era. And we had no political
relationship with them. It was from 1988 till 1998 that I observed
his style of ruling closely.
Q
: But the seven
years period of being with you gave benefits to Mian Nawaz Sharif
PAT Chairman
: Yes he got
benefits. He made his religious identification. It improved his
credibility..
Q
: So being a
part of Awami Ittehad meant that you were against Nawaz Sharif..
PAT Chairman
: No. Try to understand my point. I considered
that his style of ruling was in itself like that of kings.
Q: And that
of Benazir Bhutto...
PAT Chairman
: That is also of corruption.
Q
: But you were
with them..
PAT Chairman
: Now I tell you
that we have never sat with Benazir Bhutto to bring her in power.
It was settled that this alliance will not be to bring her in
rule. You can see the reports of our press conferences of those
days.
Q: But you
had before you the two tenures of Benazir Bhutto and the
corruption of Asif Zardari. It meant that Peoples party was doing
this all for power.
PAT Chairman
: They may have
doing for whatever they were for but we were not a part of this
alliance for this reason. It had been decided that alternative
leadership will come once Nawaz Government goes. It is written in
the basic documents of Awami Ittehad.
Q: So you
think Awami Tehreek has become alternative leadership?
PAT Chairman
: Yes. Awami Tehreek has definitely become the
alternate leadership.
Q: It
means in October election you will become third largest party?
PAT Chairman
: Very big power. Not third but we think we
will be first biggest party.
Q
: You mean you will get more votes than
peoples party?
PAT Chairman
: InshaAllah . We have seen our position in local
elections. People don't consider them popular parties now. If they
had roots in the land they would not have left the country. Awami
Tehreek has delivered. Awami Tehreek has given social agenda to
people. Awami Tehreek has thought about, planned and addressed the
social problems of the people. Awami Tehreek has made
revolutionary plans to give education, employment, health
facilities and to make a just and balanced society. Awami Tehreek
has given revolutionary agenda to provide them all the facilities
of life and believe me this message has reached in every house
from cities to villages. I have with me millions and crores of
farmers labors and youth of this country,.
Q
: The reforms and policies which president Musharraf
is bring like technocrats’ and women’s seats, joint electorate
system for minorities and condition of graduation for
candidates in assemblies' elections, do you agree with all that?
PAT Chairman
: We support it. We have categorically supported
all that. I have supported joint electorate, I have fully
supported the condition of graduation on the basis that the
country which we want to turn into a developed country, want to
excel in science and technology and in 21st century want to give
it the role of the leader of Islamic world and Asia, if we can not
tolerate to have BA pass candidates in its assemblies then we
should leave talking about education and should throw the agenda
of science and technology in the garbage bin.
Q
: But the
religious parties have made alliance against joint electorate....
PAT Chairman
: Let them do what they are doing. That is their
agenda and we have our own viewpoint and we’re acting according
to that.
Q
: Do you think
they are wrong?
PAT Chairman
: It is their agenda . Let them do according to
it. In the creation of
Pakistan
minorities were also a part. They did not go to
India
after the creation of
Pakistan
. They made
Pakistan
their homeland. We consider them equal citizens and consider them
equal in constitutional rights. They are members of Awami Tehreek.
They are leaders of our minority wing. We are going to give them
tickets.
Q
: Do you agree
with what the president is saying that I will remain president for
next five years and will not let Benazir and Nawaz Sharif to come
in power?
PAT Chairman
: They have been out of politics and it is a
result of their own deeds.
Q
: Is this not
undemocratic to have two leaders of the two political parties out
of politics?
PAT Chairman
: This is a norm in the world that if someone
commits a crime then he or she should face the law. Supreme
Court has given judgment against them that they have been indulged
in massive corruption and whole 4 pages of supreme
court are their about their corruption. What more proof do
you want?
Q: But their
parties say that their are no proofs against them..
PAT Chairman
: Parties are kings. These are those parties
which have been part of benefiting from the booty. They have
looted the national exchequer. They have sucked the blood of poor
people and have made their faces red. When
I see the redness of their cheeks, I don't see the Rizq-e-Halal in
it but the blood of the poor people. They will certainly
defend their leaders.
Q: Elections
have not been held but how president says he will be president for
next five years?
PAT Chairman
: We have no objection on it. We are not
candidates for presidentship. Someone
has to be president. If a person is going with an agenda for 2 ½
or 3 years and then if he becomes candidate for presidentship
and becomes president by some process then we have no objection on
it.
Host:
You are such a personality to which questions can be asked for
hours and you can answer them for days and even weeks but we have
limited time. Thank you very much for being in our program.
PAT Chairman
: Thank you very much too.
Manzoor Ahmed
PAT Media Centre
Karachi
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Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri on 